Exactly——
　　Evenso，asImaintain，neitherwenorourguardians，whomwehavetoeducate，caneverbecomemusicaluntilweandtheyknowtheessentialforms，inalltheircombinations，andcanrecognisethemandtheirimageswherevertheyarefound，notslightingthemeitherinsmallthingsorgreat，butbelievingthemalltobewithinthesphereofoneartandstudy。
　　Mostassuredly。
　　Andwhenabeautifulsoulharmoniseswithabeautifulform，andthetwoarecastinonemould，thatwillbethefairestofsightstohimwhohasaneyetoseeit？
　　Thefairestindeed。
　　Andthefairestisalsotheloveliest？
　　Thatmaybeassumed。
　　Andthemanwhohasthespiritofharmonywillbemostinlovewiththeloveliest；buthewillnotlovehimwhoisofaninharmonioussoul？
　　Thatistrue，hereplied，ifthedeficiencybeinhissoul；butiftherebeanymerelybodilydefectinanotherhewillbepatientofit，andwillloveallthesame。
　　Iperceive，Isaid，thatyouhaveorhavehadexperiencesofthissort，andIagree。Butletmeaskyouanotherquestion：Hasexcessofpleasureanyaffinitytotemperance？
　　Howcanthatbe？hereplied；pleasuredeprivesamanoftheuseofhisfacultiesquiteasmuchaspain。
　　Oranyaffinitytovirtueingeneral？
　　Nonewhatever。
　　Anyaffinitytowantonnessandintemperance？
　　Yes，thegreatest。
　　Andisthereanygreaterorkeenerpleasurethanthatofsensuallove？
　　No，noramadder。
　　Whereastrueloveisaloveofbeautyandorder——temperateandharmonious？
　　Quitetrue，hesaid。
　　Thennointemperanceormadnessshouldbeallowedtoapproachtruelove？
　　Certainlynot。
　　Thenmadorintemperatepleasuremustneverbeallowedtocomeneartheloverandhisbeloved；neitherofthemcanhaveanypartinitiftheirloveisoftherightsort？
　　No，indeed，Socrates，itmustnevercomenearthem。
　　ThenIsupposethatinthecitywhichwearefoundingyouwouldmakealawtotheeffectthatafriendshouldusenootherfamiliaritytohislovethanafatherwouldusetohisson，andthenonlyforanoblepurpose，andhemustfirsthavetheother’sconsent；andthisruleistolimithiminallhisintercourse，andheisnevertobeseengoingfurther，or，ifheexceeds，heistobedeemedguiltyofcoarsenessandbadtaste。
　　Iquiteagree，hesaid。
　　Thusmuchofmusic，whichmakesafairending；forwhatshouldbetheendofmusicifnottheloveofbeauty？
　　Iagree，hesaid。
　　Aftermusiccomesgymnastic，inwhichouryoutharenexttobetrained。
　　Certainly。
　　Gymnasticaswellasmusicshouldbegininearlyyears；thetraininginitshouldbecarefulandshouldcontinuethroughlife。Nowmybeliefis，——andthisisamatteruponwhichIshouldliketohaveyouropinioninconfirmationofmyown，butmyownbeliefis，——notthatthegoodbodybyanybodilyexcellenceimprovesthesoul，but，onthecontrary，thatthegoodsoul，byherownexcellence，improvesthebodyasfarasthismaybepossible。Whatdoyousay？
　　Yes，Iagree。
　　Then，tothemindwhenadequatelytrained，weshallberightinhandingoverthemoreparticularcareofthebody；andinordertoavoidprolixitywewillnowonlygivethegeneraloutlinesofthesubject。
　　Verygood。
　　Thattheymustabstainfromintoxicationhasbeenalreadyremarkedbyus；forofallpersonsaguardianshouldbethelasttogetdrunkandnotknowwhereintheworldheis。
　　Yes，hesaid；thataguardianshouldrequireanotherguardiantotakecareofhimisridiculousindeed。
　　Butnext，whatshallwesayoftheirfood；forthemenareintrainingforthegreatcontestofall——aretheynot？
　　Yes，hesaid。
　　Andwillthehabitofbodyofourordinaryathletesbesuitedtothem？
　　Whynot？
　　Iamafraid，Isaid，thatahabitofbodysuchastheyhaveisbutasleepysortofthing，andratherperiloustohealth。Doyounotobservethattheseathletessleepawaytheirlives，andareliabletomostdangerousillnessesiftheydepart，ineversoslightadegree，fromtheircustomaryregimen？
　　Yes，Ido。
　　Then，Isaid，afinersortoftrainingwillberequiredforourwarriorathletes，whoaretobelikewakefuldogs，andtoseeandhearwiththeutmostkeenness；amidthemanychangesofwaterandalsooffood，ofsummerheatandwintercold，whichtheywillhavetoendurewhenonacampaign，theymustnotbeliabletobreakdowninhealth。
　　Thatismyview。
　　Thereallyexcellentgymnasticistwinsisterofthatsimplemusicwhichwewerejustnowdescribing。
　　Howso？
　　Why，Iconceivethatthereisagymnasticwhich，likeourmusic，issimpleandgood；andespeciallythemilitarygymnastic。
　　Whatdoyoumean？
　　MymeaningmaybelearnedfromHomer；he，youknow，feedshisheroesattheirfeasts，whentheyarecampaigning，onsoldiers’fare；theyhavenofish，althoughtheyareontheshoresoftheHellespont，andtheyarenotallowedboiledmeatsbutonlyroast，whichisthefoodmostconvenientforsoldiers，requiringonlythattheyshouldlightafire，andnotinvolvingthetroubleofcarryingaboutpotsandpans。
　　True。
　　AndIcanhardlybemistakeninsayingthatsweetsaucesarenowherementionedinHomer。Inproscribingthem，however，heisnotsingular；allprofessionalathletesarewellawarethatamanwhoistobeingoodconditionshouldtakenothingofthekind。
　　Yes，hesaid；andknowingthis，theyarequiterightinnottakingthem。
　　ThenyouwouldnotapproveofSyracusandinners，andtherefinementsofSiciliancookery？
　　Ithinknot。
　　Nor，ifamanistobeincondition，wouldyouallowhimtohaveaCorinthiangirlashisfairfriend？
　　Certainlynot。
　　Neitherwouldyouapproveofthedelicacies，astheyarethought，ofAthenianconfectionery？
　　Certainlynot。
　　Allsuchfeedingandlivingmayberightlycomparedbyustomelodyandsongcomposedinthepanharmonicstyle，andinalltherhythms。Exactly。
　　Therecomplexityengenderedlicense，andheredisease；whereassimplicityinmusicwastheparentoftemperanceinthesoul；andsimplicityingymnasticofhealthinthebody。
　　Mosttrue，hesaid。
　　ButwhenintemperanceanddiseasemultiplyinaState，hallsofjusticeandmedicinearealwaysbeingopened；andtheartsofthedoctorandthelawyergivethemselvesairs，findinghowkeenistheinterestwhichnotonlytheslavesbutthefreemenofacitytakeaboutthem。
　　Ofcourse。
　　Andyetwhatgreaterproofcantherebeofabadanddisgracefulstateofeducationthanthis，thatnotonlyartisansandthemeanersortofpeopleneedtheskilloffirst—ratephysiciansandjudges，butalsothosewhowouldprofesstohavehadaliberaleducation？Isitnotdisgraceful，andagreatsignofwantofgood—breeding，thatamanshouldhavetogoabroadforhislawandphysicbecausehehasnoneofhisownathome，andmustthereforesurrenderhimselfintothehandsofothermenwhomhemakeslordsandjudgesoverhim？
　　Ofallthings，hesaid，themostdisgraceful。
　　Wouldyousay’most，’Ireplied，whenyouconsiderthatthereisafurtherstageoftheevilinwhichamanisnotonlyalife—longlitigant，passingallhisdaysinthecourts，eitherasplaintiffordefendant，butisactuallyledbyhisbadtastetopridehimselfonhislitigiousness；heimaginesthatheisamasterindishonesty；abletotakeeverycrookedturn，andwriggleintoandoutofeveryhole，bendinglikeawithyandgettingoutofthewayofjustice：andallforwhat？——inordertogainsmallpointsnotworthmentioning，henotknowingthatsotoorderhislifeastobeabletodowithoutanappingjudgeisafarhigherandnoblersortofthing。Isnotthatstillmoredisgraceful？
　　Yes，hesaid，thatisstillmoredisgraceful。
　　Well，Isaid，andtorequirethehelpofmedicine，notwhenawoundhastobecured，oronoccasionofanepidemic，butjustbecause，byindolenceandahabitoflifesuchaswehavebeendescribing，menfillthemselveswithwatersandwinds，asiftheirbodieswereamarsh，compellingtheingenioussonsofAsclepiustofindmorenamesfordiseases，suchasflatulenceandcatarrh；isnotthis，too，adisgrace？
　　Yes，hesaid，theydocertainlygiveverystrangeandnewfanglednamestodiseases。
　　Yes，Isaid，andIdonotbelievethattherewereanysuchdiseasesinthedaysofAsclepius；andthisIinferfromthecircumstancethattheheroEurypylus，afterhehasbeenwoundedinHomer，drinksapossetofPramnianwinewellbesprinkledwithbarley—mealandgratedcheese，whicharecertainlyinflammatory，andyetthesonsofAsclepiuswhowereattheTrojanwardonotblamethedamselwhogiveshimthedrink，orrebukePatroclus，whoistreatinghiscase。
　　Well，hesaid，thatwassurelyanextraordinarydrinktobegiventoapersoninhiscondition。
　　Notsoextraordinary，Ireplied，ifyoubearinmindthatinformerdays，asiscommonlysaid，beforethetimeofHerodicus，theguildofAsclepiusdidnotpractiseourpresentsystemofmedicine，whichmaybesaidtoeducatediseases。ButHerodicus，beingatrainer，andhimselfofasicklyconstitution，byacombinationoftraininganddoctoringfoundoutawayoftorturingfirstandchieflyhimself，andsecondlytherestoftheworld。
　　Howwasthat？hesaid。
　　Bytheinventionoflingeringdeath；forhehadamortaldiseasewhichheperpetuallytended，andasrecoverywasoutofthequestion，hepassedhisentirelifeasavaletudinarian；hecoulddonothingbutattenduponhimself，andhewasinconstanttormentwheneverhedepartedinanythingfromhisusualregimen，andsodyinghard，bythehelpofsciencehestruggledontooldage。
　　Ararerewardofhisskill！
　　Yes，Isaid；arewardwhichamanmightfairlyexpectwhoneverunderstoodthat，ifAsclepiusdidnotinstructhisdescendantsinvaletudinarianarts，theomissionarose，notfromignoranceorinexperienceofsuchabranchofmedicine，butbecauseheknewthatinallwell—orderedstateseveryindividualhasanoccupationtowhichhemustattend，andhasthereforenoleisuretospendincontinuallybeingill。Thisweremarkinthecaseoftheartisan，but，ludicrouslyenough，donotapplythesameruletopeopleoftherichersort。
　　Howdoyoumean？hesaid。
　　Imeanthis：Whenacarpenterisillheasksthephysicianforaroughandreadycure；anemeticorapurgeoracauteryortheknife，——thesearehisremedies。Andifsomeoneprescribesforhimacourseofdietetics，andtellshimthathemustswatheandswaddlehishead，andallthatsortofthing，herepliesatoncethathehasnotimetobeill，andthatheseesnogoodinalifewhichisspentinnursinghisdiseasetotheneglectofhiscustomaryemployment；andthereforebiddinggood—byetothissortofphysician，heresumeshisordinaryhabits，andeithergetswellandlivesanddoeshisbusiness，or，ifhisconstitutionfalls，hediesandhasnomoretrouble。
　　Yes，hesaid，andamaninhisconditionoflifeoughttousetheartofmedicinethusfaronly。
　　Hashenot，Isaid，anoccupation；andwhatprofitwouldtherebeinhislifeifheweredeprivedofhisoccupation？
　　Quitetrue，hesaid。
　　Butwiththerichmanthisisotherwise；ofhimwedonotsaythathehasanyspeciallyappointedworkwhichhemustperform，ifhewouldlive。
　　Heisgenerallysupposedtohavenothingtodo。
　　ThenyouneverheardofthesayingofPhocylides，thatassoonasamanhasalivelihoodheshouldpractisevirtue？
　　Nay，hesaid，Ithinkthathehadbetterbeginsomewhatsooner。
　　Letusnothaveadisputewithhimaboutthis，Isaid；butratheraskourselves：Isthepracticeofvirtueobligatoryontherichman，orcanhelivewithoutit？Andifobligatoryonhim，thenletusraiseafurtherquestion，whetherthisdietingofdisorderswhichisanimpedimenttotheapplicationofthemindtincarpenteringandthemechanicalarts，doesnotequallystandinthewayofthesentimentofPhocylides？
　　Ofthat，hereplied，therecanbenodoubt；suchexcessivecareofthebody，whencarriedbeyondtherulesofgymnastic，ismostinimicaltothepracticeofvirtue。
　　Yes，indeed，Ireplied，andequallyincompatiblewiththemanagementofahouse，anarmy，oranofficeofstate；and，whatismostimportantofall，irreconcilablewithanykindofstudyorthoughtorself—reflection——thereisaconstantsuspicionthatheadacheandgiddinessaretobeascribedtophilosophy，andhenceallpractisingormakingtrialofvirtueinthehighersenseisabsolutelystopped；
　　foramanisalwaysfancyingthatheisbeingmadeill，andisinconstantanxietyaboutthestateofhisbody。
　　Yes，likelyenough。
　　AndthereforeourpoliticAsclepiusmaybesupposedtohaveexhibitedthepowerofhisartonlytopersonswho，beinggenerallyofhealthyconstitutionandhabitsoflife，hadadefiniteailment；
　　suchasthesehecuredbypurgesandoperations，andbadethemliveasusual，hereinconsultingtheinterestsoftheState；butbodieswhichdiseasehadpenetratedthroughandthroughhewouldnothaveattemptedtocurebygradualprocessesofevacuationandinfusion：
　　hedidnotwanttolengthenoutgood—for—nothinglives，ortohaveweakfathersbegettingweakersons；——ifamanwasnotabletoliveintheordinarywayhehadnobusinesstocurehim；forsuchacurewouldhavebeenofnouseeithertohimself，ortotheState。
　　Then，hesaid，youregardAsclepiusasastatesman。
　　Clearly；andhischaracterisfurtherillustratedbyhissons。
　　NotethattheywereheroesinthedaysofoldandpractisedthemedicinesofwhichIamspeakingatthesiegeofTroy：Youwillrememberhow，whenPandaruswoundedMenelaus，theySuckedthebloodoutofthewound，andsprinkledsoothingremedies，buttheyneverprescribedwhatthepatientwasafterwardstoeatordrinkinthecaseofMenelaus，anymorethaninthecaseofEurypylus；
　　theremedies，astheyconceived，wereenoughtohealanymanwhobeforehewaswoundedwashealthyandregularinhabits；andeventhoughhedidhappentodrinkapossetofPramnianwine，hemightgetwellallthesame。Buttheywouldhavenothingtodowithunhealthyandintemperatesubjects，whoseliveswereofnouseeithertothemselvesorothers；theartofmedicinewasnotdesignedfortheirgood，andthoughtheywereasrichasMidas，thesonsofAsclepiuswouldhavedeclinedtoattendthem。
　　Theywereveryacutepersons，thosesonsofAsclepius。
　　Naturallyso，Ireplied。Nevertheless，thetragediansandPindardisobeyingourbehests，althoughtheyacknowledgethatAsclepiuswasthesonofApollo，sayalsothathewasbribedintohealingarichmanwhowasatthepointofdeath，andforthisreasonhewasstruckbylightning。Butwe，inaccordancewiththeprinciplealreadyaffirmedbyus，willnotbelievethemwhentheytellusboth；——ifhewasthesonofagod，wemaintainthathdwasnotavaricious；or，ifhewasavaricioushewasnotthesonofagod。
　　Allthat，Socrates，isexcellent；butIshouldliketoputaquestiontoyou：OughttherenottobegoodphysiciansinaState，andarenotthebestthosewhohavetreatedthegreatestnumberofconstitutionsgoodandbad？andarenotthebestjudgesinlikemannerthosewhoareacquaintedwithallsortsofmoralnatures？
　　Yes，Isaid，Itoowouldhavegoodjudgesandgoodphysicians。ButdoyouknowwhomIthinkgood？
　　Willyoutellme？
　　Iwill，ifIcan。Letmehowevernotethatinthesamequestionyoujointwothingswhicharenotthesame。
　　Howso？heasked。
　　Why，Isaid，youjoinphysiciansandjudges。Nowthemostskilfulphysiciansarethosewho，fromtheiryouthupwards，havecombinedwiththeknowledgeoftheirartthegreatestexperienceofdisease；theyhadbetternotberobustinhealth，andshouldhavehadallmannerofdiseasesintheirownpersons。Forthebody，asIconceive，isnottheinstrumentwithwhichtheycurethebody；inthatcasewecouldnotallowthemevertobeortohavebeensickly；buttheycurethebodywiththemind，andthemindwhichhasbecomeandissickcancurenothing。
　　Thatisverytrue，hesaid。
　　Butwiththejudgeitisotherwise；sincehegovernsmindbymind；
　　heoughtnotthereforetohavebeentrainedamongviciousminds，andtohaveassociatedwiththemfromyouthupwards，andtohavegonethroughthewholecalendarofcrime，onlyinorderthathemayquicklyinferthecrimesofothersashemighttheirbodilydiseasesfromhisownself—consciousness；thehonourablemindwhichistoformahealthyjudgmentshouldhavehadnoexperienceorcontaminationofevilhabitswhenyoung。Andthisisthereasonwhyinyouthgoodmenoftenappeartobesimple，andareeasilypractiseduponbythedishonest，becausetheyhavenoexamplesofwhatevilisintheirownsouls。
　　Yes，hesaid，theyarefartooapttobedeceived。
　　Therefore，Isaid，thejudgeshouldnotbeyoung；heshouldhavelearnedtoknowevil，notfromhisownsoul，butfromlateandlongobservationofthenatureofevilinothers：knowledgeshouldbehisguide，notpersonalexperience。
　　Yes，hesaid，thatistheidealofajudge。
　　Yes，Ireplied，andhewillbeagoodman（whichismyanswertoyourquestion）；forheisgoodwhohasagoodsoul。Butthecunningandsuspiciousnatureofwhichwespoke，——hewhohascommittedmanycrimes，andfancieshimselftobeamasterinwickedness，whenheisamongsthisfellows，iswonderfulintheprecautionswhichhetakes，becausehejudgesofthembyhimself：butwhenhegetsintothecompanyofmenofvirtue，whohavetheexperienceofage，heappearstobeafoolagain，owingtohisunseasonablesuspicions；hecannotrecogniseanhonestman，becausehehasnopatternofhonestyinhimself；atthesametime，asthebadaremorenumerousthanthegood，andhemeetswiththemoftener，hethinkshimself，andisbyothersthoughttobe，ratherwisethanfoolish。
　　Mosttrue，hesaid。
　　Thenthegoodandwisejudgewhomweareseekingisnotthisman，buttheother；forvicecannotknowvirtuetoo，butavirtuousnature，educatedbytime，willacquireaknowledgebothofvirtueandvice：
　　thevirtuous，andnotthevicious，manhaswisdom——inmyopinion。
　　Andinminealso。
　　Thisisthesortofmedicine，andthisisthesortoflaw，whichyousanctioninyourState。Theywillministertobetternatures，givinghealthbothofsoulandofbody；butthosewhoarediseasedintheirbodiestheywillleavetodie，andthecorruptandincurablesoulstheywillputanendtothemselves。
　　ThatisclearlythebestthingbothforthepatientsandfortheState。
　　Andthusouryouth，havingbeeneducatedonlyinthatsimplemusicwhich，aswesaid，inspirestemperance，willbereluctanttogotolaw。
　　Clearly。
　　Andthemusician，who，keepingtothesametrack，iscontenttopractisethesimplegymnastic，willhavenothingtodowithmedicineunlessinsomeextremecase。
　　ThatIquitebelieve。
　　Theveryexercisesandtollswhichheundergoesareintendedtostimulatethespiritedelementofhisnature，andnottoincreasehisstrength；hewillnot，likecommonathletes，useexerciseandregimentodevelophismuscles。
　　Veryright，hesaid。
　　Neitherarethetwoartsofmusicandgymnasticreallydesigned，asisoftensupposed，theoneforthetrainingofthesoul，theotherfirthetrainingofthebody。
　　Whatthenistherealobjectofthem？
　　Ibelieve，Isaid，thattheteachersofbothhaveinviewchieflytheimprovementofthesoul。
　　Howcanthatbe？heasked。
　　Didyouneverobserve，Isaid，theeffectontheminditselfofexclusivedevotiontogymnastic，ortheoppositeeffectofanexclusivedevotiontomusic？
　　Inwhatwayshown？hesaid。
　　Theoneproducingatemperofhardnessandferocity，theotherofsoftnessandeffeminacy，Ireplied。
　　Yes，hesaid，Iamquiteawarethatthemereathletebecomestoomuchofasavage，andthatthemeremusicianismeltedandsoftenedbeyondwhatisgoodforhim。
　　Yetsurely，Isaid，thisferocityonlycomesfromspirit，which，ifrightlyeducated，wouldgivecourage，but，iftoomuchintensified，isliabletobecomehardandbrutal。
　　ThatIquitethink。
　　Ontheotherhandthephilosopherwillhavethequalityofgentleness。Andthisalso，whentoomuchindulged，willturntosoftness，but，ifeducatedrightly，willbegentleandmoderate。
　　True。
　　Andinouropiniontheguardiansoughttohaveboththesequalities？
　　Assuredly。
　　Andbothshouldbeinharmony？
　　Beyondquestion。
　　Andtheharmonioussoulisbothtemperateandcourageous？
　　Yes。
　　Andtheinharmoniousiscowardlyandboorish？
　　Verytrue。
　　And，whenamanallowsmusictoplayuponhimandtopourintohissoulthroughthefunnelofhisearsthosesweetandsoftandmelancholyairsofwhichwewerejustnowspeaking，andhiswholelifeispassedinwarblingandthedelightsofsong；inthefirststageoftheprocessthepassionorspiritwhichisinhimistemperedlikeiron，andmadeuseful，insteadofbrittleanduseless。But，ifhecarriesonthesofteningandsoothingprocess，inthenextstagehebeginstomeltandwaste，untilhehaswastedawayhisspiritandcutoutthesinewsofhissoul；andhebecomesafeeblewarrior。
　　Verytrue。
　　Iftheelementofspiritisnaturallyweakinhimthechangeisspeedilyaccomplished，butifhehaveagooddeal，thenthepowerofmusicweakeningthespiritrendershimexcitable；——ontheleastprovocationheflamesupatonce，andisspeedilyextinguished；
　　insteadofhavingspirithegrowsirritableandpassionateandisquiteimpracticable。
　　Exactly。