Ath。Werewenotsayingthatonsuchoccasionsthesoulsofthedrinkersbecomelikeironheatedinthefire，andgrowsofterandyounger，andareeasilymouldedbyhimwhoknowshowtoeducateandfashionthem，justaswhentheywereyoung，andthatthisfashionerofthemisthesamewhoprescribedfortheminthedaysoftheiryouth，viz。，thegoodlegislator；andthatheoughttoenactlawsofthebanquet，which，whenamanisconfident，bold，andimpudent，andunwillingtowaithisturnandhavehisshareofsilenceandspeech，anddrinkingandmusic，willchangehischaracterintotheopposite-suchlawsaswillinfuseintohimajustandnoblefear，whichwilltakeuparmsattheapproachofinsolence，beingthatdivinefearwhichwehavecalledreverenceandshame？
　　Cle。True。
　　Ath。Andtheguardiansoftheselawsandfellow-workerswiththemarethecalmandsobergeneralsofthedrinkers；andwithouttheirhelpthereisgreaterdifficultyinfightingagainstdrinkthaninfightingagainstenemieswhenthecommanderofanarmyisnothimselfcalm；andhewhoisunwillingtoobeythemandthecommandersofDionysiacfeastswhoaremorethansixtyyearsofage，shallsufferadisgraceasgreatashewhodisobeysmilitaryleaders，orevengreater。
　　Cle。Right。
　　Ath。If，then，drinkingandamusementwereregulatedinthisway，wouldnotthecompanionsofourrevelsbeimproved？theywouldpartbetterfriendsthantheywere，andnot，asnowenemies。Theirwholeintercoursewouldberegulatedbylawandobservantofit，andthesoberwouldbetheleadersofthedrunken。
　　Cle。Ithinksotoo，ifdrinkingwereregulatedasyoupropose。
　　Ath。LetusnotthensimplycensurethegiftofDionysusasbadandunfittobereceivedintotheState。Forwinehasmanyexcellences，andonepre-eminentone，aboutwhichthereisadifficultyinspeakingtothemany，fromafearoftheirmisconceivingandmisunderstandingwhatissaid。
　　Cle。Towhatdoyourefer？
　　Ath。Thereisatraditionorstory，whichhassomehowcreptabouttheworld，thatDionysuswasrobbedofhiswitsbyhisstepmotherHere，andthatoutofrevengeheinspiresBacchicfuriesanddancingmadnessesinothers；forwhichreasonhegavemenwine。SuchtraditionsconcerningtheGodsIleavetothosewhothinkthattheymaybesafelyuttered；Ionlyknowthatnoanimalatbirthismatureorperfectinintelligence；andintheintermediateperiod，inwhichhehasnotyetacquiredhisownpropersense，heragesandroarswithoutrhymeorreason；andwhenhehasoncegotonhislegshejumpsaboutwithoutrhymeorreason；andthis，asyouwillremember，hasbeenalreadysaidbyustobetheoriginofmusicandgymnastic。
　　Cle。Tobesure，Iremember。
　　Ath。Anddidwenotsaythatthesenseofharmonyandrhythmsprangfromthisbeginningamongmen，andthatApolloandtheMusesandDionysusweretheGodswhomwehadtothankforthem？
　　Cle。Certainly。
　　Ath。Theotherstoryimpliedthatwinewasgivenmanoutofrevenge，andinordertomakehimmad；butourpresentdoctrine，onthecontrary，is，thatwinewasgivenhimasabalm，andinordertoimplantmodestyinthesoul，andhealthandstrengthinthebody。
　　Cle。That，Stranger，ispreciselywhatwassaid。
　　Ath。Thenhalfthesubjectmaynowbeconsideredtohavebeendiscussed；shallweproceedtotheconsiderationoftheotherhalf？
　　Cle。Whatistheotherhalf，andhowdoyoudividethesubject？
　　Ath。Thewholechoralartisalsoinourviewthewholeofeducation；andofthisart，rhythmsandharmoniesformthepartwhichhastodowiththevoice。
　　Cle。Yes。
　　Ath。Themovementofthebodyhasrhythmincommonwiththemovementofthevoice，butgestureispeculiartoit，whereassongissimplythemovementofthevoice。
　　Cle。Mosttrue。
　　Ath。Andthesoundofthevoicewhichreachesandeducatesthesoul，wehaveventuredtotermmusic。
　　Cle。Wewereright。
　　Ath。Andthemovementofthebody，whenregardedasanamusement，wetermeddancing；butwhenextendedandpursuedwithaviewtotheexcellenceofthebody，thisscientifictrainingmaybecalledgymnastic。
　　Cle。Exactly。
　　Ath。Music，whichwasonehalfofthechoralart，maybesaidtohavebeencompletelydiscussed。Shallweproceedtotheotherhalfornot？Whatwouldyoulike？
　　Cle。Mygoodfriend，whenyouaretalkingwithaCretanandLacedaemonian，andwehavediscussedmusicandnotgymnastic，whatanswerareeitherofuslikelytomaketosuchanenquiry？
　　Ath。Anansweriscontainedinyourquestion；andIunderstandandacceptwhatyousaynotonlyasananswer，butalsoasacommandtoproceedwithgymnastic。
　　Cle。Youquiteunderstandme；doasyousay。
　　Ath。Iwill；andtherewillnotbeanydifficultyinspeakingintelligiblytoyouaboutasubjectwithwhichbothofyouarefarmorefamiliarthanwithmusic。
　　Cle。Therewillnot。
　　Ath。Isnottheoriginofgymnastics，too，tobesoughtinthetendencytorapidmotionwhichexistsinallanimals；man，asweweresaying，havingattainedthesenseofrhythm，createdandinventeddancing；andmelodyarousingandawakeningrhythm，bothunitedformedthechoralart？
　　Cle。Verytrue。
　　Ath。Andonepartofthissubjecthasbeenalreadydiscussedbyus，andtherestillremainsanothertobediscussed？
　　Cle。Exactly。
　　Ath。Ihavefirstafinalwordtoaddtomydiscourseaboutdrink，ifyouwillallowmetodoso。
　　Cle。Whatmorehaveyoutosay？
　　Ath。Ishouldsaythatifacityseriouslymeanstoadoptthepracticeofdrinkingunderdueregulationandwithaviewtotheenforcementoftemperance，andinlikemanner，andonthesameprinciple，willallowofotherpleasures，designingtogainthevictoryovertheminthiswayallofthemmaybeused。ButiftheStatemakesdrinkinganamusementonly，andwhoeverlikesmaydrinkwheneverhelikes，andwithwhomhelikes，andaddtothisanyotherindulgences，Ishallneveragreeorallowthatthiscityorthismanshouldpractisedrinking。IwouldgofurtherthantheCretansandLacedaemonians，andamdisposedrathertothelawoftheCarthaginians，thatnoonewhileheisonacampaignshouldbeallowedtotastewineatall，butthatheshoulddrinkwaterduringallthattime，andthatinthecitynoslave，maleorfemale，shouldeverdrinkwine；andthatnomagistratesshoulddrinkduringtheiryearofoffice，norshouldpilotsofvesselsorjudgeswhileondutytastewineatall，noranyonewhoisgoingtoholdaconsultationaboutanymatterofimportance；norinthedaytimeatall，unlessinconsequenceofexerciseorasmedicine；noragainatnight，whenanyone，eithermanorwoman，ismindedtogetchildren。Therearenumberlessothercasesalsoinwhichthosewhohavegoodsenseandgoodlawsoughtnottodrinkwine，sothatifwhatIsayistrue，nocitywillneedmanyvineyards。Theirhusbandryandtheirwayoflifeingeneralwillfollowanappointedorder，andtheircultivationofthevinewillbethemostlimitedandtheleastcommonoftheiremployments。Andthis，Stranger，shallbethecrownofmydiscourseaboutwine，ifyouagree。
　　Cle。Excellent：weagree。
　　BOOKIII
　　AthenianStranger。Enoughofthis。Andwhat，then，istoberegardedastheoriginofgovernment？Willnotamanbeabletojudgeofitbestfromapointofviewinwhichhemaybeholdtheprogressofstatesandtheirtransitionstogoodorevil？
　　Cleinias。Whatdoyoumean？
　　Ath。Imeanthathemightwatchthemfromthepointofviewoftime，andobservethechangeswhichtakeplaceinthemduringinfiniteages。
　　Cle。Howso？
　　Ath。Why，doyouthinkthatyoucanreckonthetimewhichhaselapsedsincecitiesfirstexistedandmenwerecitizensofthem？
　　Cle。Hardly。
　　Ath。Butaresurethatitmustbevastandincalculable？
　　Cle。Certainly。
　　Ath。Andhavenotthousandsandthousandsofcitiescomeintobeingduringthisperiodandasmanyperished？Andhasnoteachofthemhadeveryformofgovernmentmanytimesover，nowgrowinglarger，nowsmaller，andagainimprovingordeclining？
　　Cle。Tobesure。
　　Ath。Letusendeavourtoascertainthecauseofthesechanges；forthatwillprobablyexplainthefirstoriginanddevelopmentofformsofgovernment。
　　Cle。Verygood。Youshallendeavourtoimpartyourthoughtstous，andwewillmakeanefforttounderstandyou。
　　Ath。Doyoubelievethatthereisanytruthinancienttraditions？
　　Cle。Whattraditions？
　　Ath。Thetraditionsaboutthemanydestructionsofmankindwhichhavebeenoccasionedbydelugesandpestilences，andinmanyotherways，andofthesurvivalofaremnant？
　　Cle。Everyoneisdisposedtobelievethem。
　　Ath。Letusconsideroneofthem，thatwhichwascausedbythefamousdeluge。
　　Cle。Whatarewetoobserveaboutit？
　　Ath。Imeantosaythatthosewhothenescapedwouldonlybehillshepherds-smallsparksofthehumanracepreservedonthetopsofmountains。
　　Cle。Clearly。
　　Ath。Suchsurvivorswouldnecessarilybeunacquaintedwiththeartsandthevariousdeviceswhicharesuggestedtothedwellersincitiesbyinterestorambition，andwithallthewrongswhichtheycontriveagainstoneanother。
　　Cle。Verytrue。
　　Ath。Letussuppose，then，thatthecitiesintheplainandonthesea-coastwereutterlydestroyedatthattime。
　　Cle。Verygood。
　　Ath。Wouldnotallimplementshavethenperishedandeveryotherexcellentinventionofpoliticaloranyothersortofwisdomhaveutterlydisappeared？
　　Cle。Why，yes，myfriend；andifthingshadalwayscontinuedastheyareatpresentordered，howcouldanydiscoveryhaveeverbeenmadeevenintheleastparticular？Foritisevidentthattheartswereunknownduringtenthousandtimestenthousandyears。AndnomorethanathousandortwothousandyearshaveelapsedsincethediscoveriesofDaedalus，OrpheusandPalamedes-sinceMarsyasandOlympusinventedmusic，andAmphionthelyre-nottospeakofnumberlessotherinventionswhicharebutofyesterday。
　　Ath。Haveyouforgotten，Cleinias，thenameofafriendwhoisreallyofyesterday？
　　Cle。IsupposethatyoumeanEpimenides。